So what happens next?
Whatever else you say about the moto czsyz bikes, they are certainly packed with new (new old?) ideas. Outside the box.
Does it have vertical wheel travel? wishbones?
Sorry for delay, but everyone has been on holiday.
My suspension guru says you just work out the period for a dual-rate spring (or 2 springs in series) as per the formula in my last reply.
Motorcycle tyre periods will be about 4Hz. Motorcycle springs will be 1 or 1 1/2 Hz.
He says motion sickness is caused down low at about 1 Hz but fatigue is induced between 4-8 Hz.
I just mistyped 'fatigue' as 'fatgut' and thought for a moment that I had solved the mystery of Harley owners all looking the same; it's resonance from the suspension ;-)
Further to above, Nigel Rees has just sent me a reply.
Thanks for coming - it was great to see you. You're right - we are all old!!
Answers - frequency is a function of the Mass / Spring system. A mass suspended on two springs in series will have a natural frequency based on the aggregat e (R1 x R2)/ (R1+R2) rate. It is unlikely that the two springs will induce harmonics if their rates are different. Note that the tyre is a series spring - rate usually 600 - 1500 Lbf/ in - natura lfrequency usually 5 - 6 Hz..
Ground effect racing cars with very stiff, rising rate springs suffer 'porpoising' (harmonic oscillation) typically over 160 mph when the frequency of the rising rate spring system matches the tyre frequency. Drivers may be subjected to 6 Hz oscillations with 5-7 mm amplitude and oscillating accelerations in the range + / -2g. Not pleasant.Amplified by downforce changing with ground clearance.
Most road cars have suspension frequencies in the 1.3 - 1.8 Hz rang - racing cars 2- 3.5 Hz, ground effect racing cars >4Hz.
Frequencies in the range 0.5 - 1 Hz cause motion sickness (1950s/60s Vauxhalls!!).
Frequencies in the 4-8 Hz range cause fatigue in humans. (Physiological research relating to power tools).
Re damping, it's a compromise between the damping requirement in 2 wheel bump, single wheel bump, pitch and roll - and it's never perfect unless you isolate all those functions and damp them separately. F1 cars now have separated bump & roll springs and dampers.'
So there we are.
"So there we are."
Flippin eck. That is very good of your friend dean15. Thanks very much. Really interesting stuff on the race cars.
I switched from Bridgestone bt016's to bt023's a while ago on a z1000 I had and the difference it made to how the front suspension interacted was very noticeable. It drastically changed the steering and tyre life too, but thats off topic. It's a weird and wonderful topic for sure.
" So there we are"
I always knew that, obvious really :-)
Captain scarlet said: "I note that the Motoczysz E1PC - EV (first electric motorcycle to complete a 100 mph lap of the TT circuit), has forks which are oval for aerodynamics. They have no fluid as the damping is controlled by a shock that lives where the airbox would be on most bikes, presumably a variant on telelever? "
Is this the one with co axial suspension? Where the spring lives concentric with the steering "stem"? If so I wouldn't say it compares (functionally) with the Telelever at all. Interesting in its own right though. Give me a wishbone any day.
The design and precisely how the suspension works, seems thin on the ground: http://motoczysz.com
well micro gas turbines are nearing commercial breakthrough ....i can imagine them screaming at traffic lights while hoping to charge the accumulator enough to beat that audi a8 off the lights.
Kharli said: well micro gas turbines are nearing commercial breakthrough"
Just reading a bit on Wikipedia and it mentions the use of air or magnetic bearings. That's fine for the ultra high speed, low torque micro turbine itself, but how do you take off the torque and multiply it up without incurring an overhung load? Would this type of bearing accommodate any kind of overhung load?
thats why i thought it would be just for a generator , I imagine eventualy powering a hub motor in both wheels with the rest of the bike being an ergonomic battery . As a side note is the idea of some rear wheel steering completly wrong?,....
actualy im imagining a structural battery with a memory material effect so the whole frame /battery can react to whatever the front radar is picking up..of course the whole thing will be able to drive completly automatically allowing the rider to have a good look around or indeed to try and look at ashonbikes on the holo screen..which would double up as a computer game that you could shoot up cop cars and stuff on boring bits..oh well lucky im happy enough with my nc and the pills oc
(disclaimer...i hold no malice towards the police the above was an example only)
I thought I had a good imagination! ; ). LOL.
Drive completely automatically? Nah. Not for me.
Keep taking the pills Kharli. And if you could pop some in the post for me, that'd be great. : D
thanks pittsy for the wiki look ..i read it and it seems major advances in thermocouple electric generation is needed to use the very available waste heat from the turbine....mmm how about the fairing collecting rainwater and feeding it into a micro steam engine ,well i guess if you can lightly build a closed loop steam engine around the turbine running or somehow adding to the turbines momentum or another micro turbine...the faster you went the more waste heat and more power just when you need it fighting air resistance at high speed...comon motogp i thought you were a development class...
A few car manufacturers seem to be looking at devices which go into/onto the exhaust and generate electricity from the waste heat. They don't look that efficient in terms off cost/surface area required versus output. But it's early days so who knows.
pittsy or anyone else know if magnetic piston engines are more than hocus pocus , also if not ,do you think magnetic balancing is possible
Kharli said: "pittsy or anyone else know if magnetic piston engines are more than hocus pocus , also if not ,do you think magnetic balancing is possible"
I don't know anything about a magnetic piston engine, or even if one exists. I guess they must as someone will have tried. There wouldn't seem much point as the electric motor is already a magnetic engine, just not a reciprocating one.
I could see that a magnetic reciprocating device would be useful in, say, a pump application, where certain types of pump are better being a piston or diaphragm type. But that wouldn't necessarily involve a crank.
Ive never done this, but to get an idea of the quantity of material (iron, copper and whatever material for the structure) you'd need, look at a squirrel cage electric motor. Divide the torque by the diameter of the rotor and you'll have a stab at the "pull" it will generate. But see how long the rotor is. That's the kind of area you'd need.
My guess is that it's more efficient to stay with the direct rotary action of an electric motor. Rather than creating a linear "pull" (or push) and converting the force into torque by a crank. But I'm speculating.
Thanks pittsy , i agree ,i also see no point but the search to find out more has lead to a whole raft of engine types i never new existed ,unfortunatly its hard to distinguish the ones that seem to break the laws of thermodynamics and ones that may have real applications..i binged ,maps, rats and stirling engines ...phew i wont link what i thought were the best links incase i expose a deficiency in my reality sensors .
Im still willing to be told whats completly wrong with rear wheel steering in a hub motored rear wheel (to avoid drive alignment issues tho i guess a shaft drive can be bevelled to allow some movement)..I really cant get my head around what it would mean (handling ,lean, tyre contact etc) .
On another note hurrah for online learning..that and telepresence are the next two big revolutions imo...oh and a universal translator so when im in france asking for water i dont keep getting offered eggs ......
Hello pissy and kharli,
I personally hope they don’t replace the internal combustion engine any time soon. I guess I am showing my age, but I really like internal combustion engines. They may not be efficient but they are a lot of fun.
An important element in riding is the emotional experience of riding a bike. Most ride in my area because they want to, not because they have too.
A big factor of the emotional experience of riding is the engine and the way it sounds and responds and feels under different conditions. I would find it difficult to become excited or connected to an electric motor.
Went for a nice ride yesterday. It was 17 degrees C with a light wind and some sun. It was a good riding day and probably one of the last in my area. Saw lots of bikes and all kinds of makes. Even a 1947 Nimbus. Cool bike with its sidecar.
One chap had a really nicely tricked out BMW twin. He had set it up like a café racer. The exhaust was pure music. The engine looked great with those big pots sticking out the sides. I didn’t know BMW twins could sound like that! It sounded so mean! The fellow must have been in his 70’s. You should have seen the smile on his face. Somehow I don’t think he would have been as excited about an electric motorcycle.
yeah im with you there jag ,however, i find it fun second guessing the future and just maybe having a part of it with a bright idea .My problem atm is im realizing unfamiliarity with higher maths is like being blind...back to my nth reading of cross plane cranks !!.Envy your 17 deg i probly got six months at least of wet sub ten degrees proper scottish weather..the last few years really testing. Ive been here on an off for twenty years and had one summer where the thermometer never got above 15 ,,but the empty roads and fantastic countryside easily make up for it and when it is nice im right in it phwoooooor. Engine noise is so subjective...i actually disliked my nc at first because it felt to contrived but now im absolutly in love with the noise when pushed hard,tho once finished accelerating its mostly silent..whats important to me is a bike i can afford to ride, is fun, and gives me 100% confidence im going to arrive. after 16000 on my nc it ticks all those boxes (ive kept my cbf 125 also cos thats stupid cheep to run)(And its fun thrashing the pants of something legaly)(esp with those really bad tyres in the wet)(47 a yr tax and ins !!!)
casmir ossilators.....ive read and read nanoelectromechanical devices and i still cant find out if you get more out (the up to 1 atmosphere acttractive force) than the still not sure i understand mechanism of switching it to a repulsive force...at least theres good wiki links unlike magnetic piston bolux.
anyway thats about as way out as i can find without invoking black magic and strange mushrooms..still cant see how it can be scaled up. any advances on that? hehe also in near future is the creation of a whole new set of new elements with yet unknown `exotic ` properties....mmm some men it white coats at the door g2g
casimir is the correct spelling...another reason i kept my 125 is here. now a fun visualisation of what happens to our money...indeed a lot of bikes were bought on the back of some of them lorries ...
not quite in the spirit of forum topic but i felt you might b intrested.Just off to the shops for a fancy printer.
Jag said: " I didn’t know BMW twins could sound like that!"
Yes, I can vouch from personal ownership of an r100 kitted out with k&n filters and short megaphone "silencers". They sound and feel good. Good old fashioned fun.
Hey, pittsy and kharli,
Whatever new engine you guys come up with just make darn sure it has the sound of wrath in its voice. A bike needs to feel hot blooded and have the soul of Thor. It must make your teeth ache just looking at it. All the thrust curves and efficiency calculations in the world mean nothing without that.
"Whatever new engine you guys come up with just make darn sure it has the sound of wrath in its voice. A bike needs to feel hot blooded and have the soul of Thor. It must make your teeth ache just looking at it. All the thrust curves and efficiency calculations in the world mean nothing without that"
... hhmmm, sounds like the engine in and the look of my new Harley Davidson Road King Classic :-D
Thor and teeth ache you say?
Yep, after a 200 mile ride across country on the 20mm racing foam pad masquerading as a seat, my body feels Thor and my teeth ache. Ha ha.
(Actually the seat pad is surprisingly comfy.)
I guess you will be somehow let down hearing the sound of this one (what sound?). This O2 Pursuit appeared a year ago but gets some buzz now and then. It runs on compressed air:
If its torque and range is nice I would be more than happy to ride silently thru the woods and trails. Re-fill? By running a solar-panel powered compressor maybe?
Good morning pittsy and Captain Scarlet,
Thor and aches, that was pretty funny wasn’t it. ;-)
Got to love those deep hidden messages.
I was following about eight big Harley Davidsons on a twisty road this past weekend. The road was very much like your video at about 1/3 the speed. Boy those Harley’s sounded great as they accelerated together from low speeds.
So you have a new H-D Captain Scarlet. What happened to your zippy Triumph?
"If its torque and range is nice I would be more than happy to ride silently thru the woods and trails. Re-fill? By running a solar-panel powered compressor maybe?"
Solar panels to charge the compressor - I think you would need to add a trailer hitch to your quiet bike to pull the charging system (solar panels and batteries and compressor) along with a tent and a couple of days rations. Just hope you are planning to ride on only sunny days.
The charging system would cost more than your bike.
Just give me a few gallons of gas anyday.
Navispur said: "This O2 Pursuit appeared a year ago but gets some buzz now and then. It runs on compressed air:"
Interesting little thing. There are going to be severe limitations obviously, but for short range, light duties, why not? There's no such thing as a free lunch though, so the compressed air will need to consume energy to reach a compressed state.
I don't know how the O2 is constructed but, as I see things, one drawback with compressed air is that a pressure vessel is needed (stating the obvious). Pressure vessels tend to be over engineered and reasonably heavy. If you can incorporate the vessel into the structure of the bike, ie; the main frame then that would help, but really isn't the idea that you can simply swap over tanks ie; you buy a newly filled tank and part exchange your empty one? If so, then it is going to be very difficult to incorporate the tank into the structure of the bike frame. A tough design challenge.
Is the O2 inclined more towards a fast mountain bike than a true motorbike? Maybe somewhere between the two?
Your comment about solar panels got me thinking about that idea in general. That, for all its limitations, compressed air is not a bad way to harvest the sun's energy and have it transported around the world. Pre bottled solar energy! By rights, all the compressed air we buy should be produced in countries between the tropics. Even if compressed air is not always an efficient way to release energy, at least the main ingredient is free and abundant!
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