New bike dilemma

Hello Denis (and Shuggs!).

I've ridden quite a few Victory's now, from the Vegas to the Cross Country. In theory, they tick the right boxes. They are metric, which means I can spanner them (sorta) myself. There's some sound tech and they are slightly more powerful than the similar sized HD engine. If you like the HD FatBoy you may like the new Vic Boardwalk.

So in theory the Vic should be better than the HD. But the last one I rode (Cross Country) which I 'really' wanted to like, I just didn't. The gearbox was really horrible (clonky new on the HD but the settle down with miles) totally impossible to find neutral at the lights, the mirrors vibrated terribly and it didn't feel particularly well at low speed. I wanted it to feel like a more modern Street Glide, but it just didn't. It just left me feeling deflated.

MCN video tested a Vic Vegas, Triumph ThunderBird and HD Wide Glide. They said that technically the Triumph and Vic were better but when you considered the image and heritage of HD, you'd feel you were buying an imitation if you bought anything else.

I don't buy into the image and heritage. They are what they are, but don't mean much to me personally. But what does is the feel and the sound. Only a Ducati sounds better than a HD IMPO and for cruising the way that a HD makes it's power and the smooth delivery make it exactly fit for purpose. If I had to explain you wouldn't understand sounds about as patronising a marketing statement as you could ever hear. But when you experience ownership of that smooth loping canter, inexplicable you do end up 'getting it', as such.

I've owned a Dyna (Fat Bob - still have a soft spot for it's butch looks and decent handling) and Softail (Deuce). I've ridden every model in the Sportster, Dyna, Softail and Touring ranges except the relatively recently introduced Softail Slim. And I've ridden each of the HD models you are interested in multiple times and over distance, both solo and two-up. Obviously all impressions regarding bikes are personal, but you wouldn't be asking for feedback if you didn't want opinions!

So, my personal view is that hands down the best motorcycle that HD make is a post 2010 (when the frame was stiffened by 67%, significantly improving handling) Road King Classic. The basic Road King and Classic (RKC) are easily distinguishable as the basic has mag/aluminum wheels and painted hard panniers. And the Classic has spoked wheels, whitewall tyres and leather wrapped 'hard' panniers. The other key difference is the wheel sizes. This is key as it makes the Classic more agile, as well as better looking IMPO.

The RKC has the versatility to quickly detach the screen and it's panniers, making for a cool boulevard cruiser, or more practical mount depending on where you're going and who with. The other advantage of the RKC, over some other HD's is that the security pack (keyless ignition and alarm, plus Brembo ABS) are standard equipment.

HD engines in recent years have migrated from the twin-cam 88 cubic inch (1458 cc), to the twin-cam 96 ci (1584 cc) and currently the 103 ci (1690 cc). The limited edition CVO models have a 110 ci (1802 cc) engine. I've ridden decent miles on each mill, and rather predictably the larger the capacity the more performance, but also the more refinement has been noticeable. The current 103/ 1690 engine, with the standard 6-speed cruise-drive gearbox is probably the best combination for real-world speeds on the RKC.

I am tall (6ft 2") and heavy (222lbs / 15.10?) and find the RKC tall screen works very well in the wet (can look over the top of it with minimal buffeting) and it's considerable weight (which is carried low) represents no problem for my titanium reinforced legs to push about. However if you happen to be a more normal 5ft 8" and 180 lbs or something, then you might want to consider the Dyna Switchback, which has some of the benefits of the Road King (quick detach screen an panniers), if not quite it's panache and 'you've arrived' road presence.

Big miles on Harley's isn't too troublesome, they are a relatively simple design, so are generally under-stressed and easy to service. Service intervals are 5k, so probably once a year for you. Harley have the best self-cancelling indicators in the business and the Road King has cruise control as standard, which is a genuine boon on longer runs in particular. If you live in a hot climate you can have the rear cylinder set to shut-down at idle, saving fuel and reducing heat (HD's are more high tech than people think! ;-D) but then again you'll lose that lovely 'potato-potato' sound.

If you prefer to cruise than keep up with friends large street-bikes, then the stock exhaust and air filter are perfectly acceptable. However, unlike most bikes, a straight through exhaust system, replacement filter and an efi tuners such as those offered by Vance and Hines do make a big difference. It will make the bikes 'loud'. And the performance will noticeably increase (several percent), but the biggest gain I think is in the pick-up response and smoothness. To me the later two points are more desirable than more noise, not that hearing it as nature intended is particularly annoying to most riders and the police seem to positively embrace it vs screaming fours!

Anyway, good luck with whatever you end up with, like Adventure bikes, the popularity of cruisers is growing the world over. I think that many forget that they often ride bikes in their spare time to forget about the stress, pace and aggression of the rat race they are entangled in, and yet they often choose to ride something with those exact attributes, which just seems an extension of their anxiety rather than a release for them. Sometimes it's better to travel than arrive and he who gets there last... still gets there.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/road-king-classic.html

http://www.vanceandhines.com

On a side note, I haven't read anything in the press, but just noticed this new Customer Vehicle Operations model from Harley Davidson, called the Breakout. Probably the best looking production bike I've seen in absolutely donkeys years. At a price. The thing I really like is it appears to be the first ever CVO that is 'not' based on a current production bike as it's base (looks a Softail frame though), it looks truly bespoke custom and I love it in it's (wait for it) 'Hard Candy Gold Dust / Liquid Sun with Pagan Gold Graphics' color scheme. Boy is that cool paint, the best I've seen on a production bike, maybe ever?

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/cvo-breakout.html#!overview

You're welcome. As you may have guessed, I'm a real free-loader for testing demo bikes, to me it's what they are there for and ultimately trying them does sell bikes for the dealer. So my view would be try a HD and a Victory, preferably on the same day. There's more HD dealers and residuals are stronger, but technically the Vic offers a more modern engine design, so it's all swings and roundabouts depending on your personal needs. Anyway, do let us know how you get on if you ride the Road King Classic and anything else.

Other Views:

Obviously Victory biased, but some thought provoking points:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGkFPUeNUqc&feature=relmfu

Feel vs Tech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX0cyoyQXgo&feature=related

Firstly, Denis, congrats. Owners of CB1300's seem extremely happy. Don't worry about being fickle, it's my middle name. Well it's actually Ian, but you know what I mean! ;-D

Yes, the CVO RK has landed. I've been to the CVO York plant and had a tour of how they do stuff there. It's a cleverer plant than people would think, with fenders cut from (cue Austin Powers voice-over) 'lasers', robots doing some key work and paint applied with a trowel thickness wise and finished by hand. More TLC than most production bikes.

I can't say the RK CVO is remotely to my personal tastes, way too garish and discombobulated for me. I'm much more of a Breakout man. myself.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/cvo-road-king.html#!gallery

Ignoring power-cruisers (Diavel/R3/VMax, M109R, etc) , which are slightly at odds with what the genre is about, if you add a 100 kg rider, looking at wet weights, the following is how the torque power-to-weight figures work out.

Clearly Victory and the bigger-bore T-Bird have a PTW advantage, although technically speaking gearing and what not come into play too. But in this sector, rather than race-reps say, it's also about sound, feel, character, image, history and kudos. They're all personal, so they are whatever they are to you.

I like the design of Vic's and the feel of Harley's. I think both are well built, but I prefer Harley's assembly (hidden cables and stuff). I think you can abuse Vic's better when the mood takes, but some standard features on the Hog make life easy like keyless ignition/auto alarm, self-cancelling indicators, cruise control and stuff. That said multi-media/telematics handling is better on Vic's, so those damn (darn I should say now I'm half 'merican) swings and roundabouts come into play.

I think the numbers can almost be ignored when it comes to cruisers. For instance, the RKC feels like it has more beans than the far lighter Blackline to me. And I've ridden them back to back within minutes of each other. So weight placement, gearing and whatnot probably account for a lot.

I sat on the Vision, Hard Ball bagger and Judge on Saturday. The Vision made a Goldthang feel like an RGV250. With carbon wheels. The High Ball didn't feel as pits-in-the-wind as I thought it might. Although as it was 101F on the readout outside the dealership and I got caught at every set of lights on the ride home. I was thinking of growing a ZZ-Top beard, and buying some stick on offense tatts, just so that I could ride the matt-black Hard Ball in a wife-beater vest and sneer at 3-series drivers at junctions. Ooh, get ya freak on...

The Victory Judge, I was surprised to be pretty taken with I must admit, especially in it's mental nuclear orange hue. Ergonomically, it's relatively light, thin, low and small feeling. For a circa 1700 cc v-twin cruiser it is very compact feeling. But I liked that low, slim, sporty silhouette and the low centre of gravity made it's similar to Fat Bob weight feel more manageable to haul off the sidestand.

I also like the creases in the tank and the black filler cap, the 60/70' muscle car aim has been hit squarely on the head with that model. Sounds pretty sweet with some open pipes going by YouTube vids too. The seat is thicker than it looks in pics. I loved it's shape, the way it properly wrapped around and down the tank, like it had been designed 'properly', which is rare these days.

I don't think you'll find the weight of the RKC to bad RIC, it's carried very low and walking speed balance is pretty good. You're tall like me, so I'd try the Vic Judge and High Ball bobber, the Harley Fat Bob or Wide Glide, plus the Road King 'Classic'. An eclectic mix to feed the soul.

I think my next bike could be a cruiser. I love bobbers, so the the High Ball appeals, and I like muscular cruisers so the Judge and Fat Bob still appeals. But I also like long days in the saddle, sometimes too two-up, so the Road King Classic reigns supreme for me then. When the time comes, maybe I'll keep the eXplorer as well though, I was a little indifferent about it when I got it, the engine didn't seem as characterful or smooth as it's 800 sibling and of course it doesn't have it's agility. But now 1,400 miles in, it does seem to be getting better (particularly smoother and more comfortable) with every mile. And it's very capable too, easy to knock off three figure speed (kph natch ;-D) miles. It's a good bike and mine hasn't missed a beat so far, even starting on the g-of-go at the weekend after not turning a wheel for nearly five weeks (illness and stuff).

If you ride the King of the Road, let me know your thoughts. Try it with and without the screen if you can and preferably without a noob salesman shadowing your every step.

Make Family Model kilo (wet with 100kg rider) torque torque-ptw
Victory Cruisers Vegas 8-Ball 403 113 0.28
Victory Cruisers Vegas Judge 413 113 0.27
Victory Cruisers High Ball 413 113 0.27
Victory Cruisers Boulevard 420 113 0.27
Triumph Thunderbird Storm 1700 439 115 0.26
Harley Softail Blackline 407 99 0.24
Triumph Thunderbird 1600 439 108 0.25
Victory Baggers Hard Ball 458 113 0.25
Victory Baggers Cross Country 460 113 0.25
Harley Sportster Seventy-Two 352 79 0.22
Harley Dyna Fat Bob 420 100 0.24
Harley Softail Slim 418 99 0.24
Harley Dyna Switchback 426 100 0.23
Harley Sportster 1200 Custom 460 79 0.17
Harley Sportster Forty-Eight 460 79 0.17
Harley Dyna Street Bob 405 92 0.23
Harley Softail Fat Boy 430 99 0.23
Harley Softail Fat Boy Lo 430 99 0.23
Harley Softail Deluxe 430 99 0.23
Harley Dyna Super Glide 410 92 0.22
Harley Dyna Wide Glide 410 92 0.22
Harley V-Rod V-Rod Special 407 88 0.22
Harley Softail Heritage Classic 441 97 0.22
Harley V-Rod Night Rod Special 403 83 0.21
Harley Touring Road King 468 100 0.21
Harley Touring Road King Classic 468 100 0.21
Harley Touring Street Glide 468 100 0.21
Victory Touring Vision 507 109 0.21
Kawasaki Voyager Voyager ABS 506 108 0.21
Harley Touring Road Glide Custom 480 100 0.21
Harley Touring Road Glide Ultra 513 100 0.19
Harley Touring Electra Glide Classic 513 100 0.19
Harley Sportster Iron 883 355 55 0.15
Harley Sportster SuperLow 360 55 0.15

Captain. Thanks for the post but I need more help. I'm also confused by HD nomenclature so what is the Bober and Fat Glide, I understand the Road King as it is a tourer but what are/how would you categorise Bobbers and Glides.

Is it as in 'I will just bob down to the Chippie' or ' Glide up to Heart Attack Greasy Cafe on the A5'? Well I suppose it's Dunking Donnuts and Wendy's Burgers!

Which do you see as the most agile ignoring the entry level 1200's?

I test road the Road King with the latest frame and was very surprised by how smooth the engine was. I expected big shakes and vibes but the opposite was the case with loads of character, now understand why loud exhausts are tempting and popular.

Not sure about the bikes handling (it was a short ride down a country lane) as it did under-steer a bit, but maybe that was me not adjusting to the bike, but the low speed steering was OK despite being conscious of the low down weight. The bike had brakes which confused me given all the criticism over the years about HD brakes.

My K1600 is BIG and HEAVY but shrinks and sheds weight on the move whereas the HD stayed BIG but maybe familiarity and miles shrinks the bike?

Yes HD are different and I can see how you could get attached as long as you are happy 'cruising' along.They are not sporty are they?

So any help on what the other models are like, riding/owning wise, would be appreciated.

MP1300gt tHANKS FOR THE HEADS UP. Can't live with spokes as my threshold of boredom is low when cleaning.....oh I know HD's are perfect for riders with a cleaning fetish but a slightly clean HD must be cool.....no, they rust...ahhhhh.

It seems to me they are masters at making a zillion models from the basic frames and engines; plus charging big money for the ownership privilege....makes Ducati's look like VFM and I never thought I would say that.

Thanks Captain......a lot to take in but at least I now have a road map. Very good summary and no more than A4 sheet...your corporate experience me thinks.

I do like the RK but also the Breakout and Fat Lady Bobber, so quite a few testrides to do. There are only 30 Breakouts destined to the UK.

Your observation that no one turned up on a V-Rod.....great engine but somehow not a HD.

As for the bobbing bar maids......mind boggling like the HD range.

Whilst we're talking H-D I see with some disappointment that the Nightster and XR1200 are missing from their 2013 range.

Thanks for the rundown of the H-D range there CS. I'm curious to have a ride on a Switchback and see just what I think of it. I really like the look of it and the 'Smooth loping gait' is exactly what I like about riding my XR. They are deceptive bikes the Harleys and they work better than one tends to feel I find. Now that I have my Ventura rack on my XR I can't see me getting rid of it to be honest.

Interesting observations about the V-Rod though. It seems that H-D riders really don't want to go down that particular evolutionary road. A real shame me thinks.

VROD ... best PTW (among REAL) cruisers.
... actually, surprisingly (to me) not - see the torque to weight (inc 100 kg rider) figs list above.

"your corporate experience me thinks"
... yes, a VP at a $200bn corp. I have the microchip implant in the back of the head and everything ;-D

"There are only 30 Breakouts destined to the UK"
... and all will be pre-sold, whatever they cost. It's pretty special that one, makes the Carbon Diavel look very mainstream. It's based on a Softail frame (no visible shock see), and the forks may have come off the superseded Deuce or a Wide Glide, but other than that everything looks bespoke/brand new. I.e. It's not an existing model with a bit of slap on, like most variants of Harley's including CVO's. It's like they realise that to appeal to someone who really wants something special, that what they offer actually has to 'be special'. If I had the spare cash burning a hole, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

Your observation that no one turned up on a V-Rod.....great engine but somehow not a HD.
... well the engine was primarily designed by Porsche. Despite the LC aspect a lot of the internal design is similar to the current Victory engine. Who copied who? Not going there. It's about 125 hp, at the crank, apparently. Some people like it (my next door neighbour has a VRod CVO that he says he will never sell) and others I know (HD owners and non owners) think it's as clincially boring and bland as a run of the mill Honda. It's another example of where numbers and technical efficiency do not trump the majority of owners buying decision when it comes to cruisers. Looks are(personal, subjective, but very)important to cruiser owners, as is the sound and feel. If you're generally 'cruising' along at 60-70 mph everywhere you want to it feel wonderfully engaging and the closest you can get to a hug on a bike, to make up for not hitting that apex with your knee at 120 mph. It's a different way to get your kicks, Route 66 or Nurburgring, choose your (steel) horse and take your pick etc.

As for the bobbing bar maids......mind boggling like the HD range.
... the taller one nearly had my eye out and no mistaking, like chapel hatpegs on scammel wheelnuts. I asked how much a pint was and totally missed the answer. Had to give her $20 just to make sure it was enough!

I'm curious to have a ride on a Switchback and see just what I think of it.
... I liked it, but just found it a little cramped (6ft 2"). I could live with it, but the bigger touring bikes were more roomy. I like the idea that in some ways it's like a smaller, lighter Road King, with the same versatility to remove the saddlebags/panniers and screen in a jiffy. The hard bags are easier to clean and more secure to lock too. It's good vfm too and a decent looker in the flesh, with easy clean wheels and nice paint, especially Sunset Red. It still appeals to me and I'd like another longer ride - unfortunately it was short and processional.

I really like the look of it and the 'Smooth loping gait' is exactly what I like about riding my XR. They are deceptive bikes the Harleys and they work better than one tends to feel I find. Now that I have my Ventura rack on my XR I can't see me getting rid of it to be honest.
... there's a bike for every person. I love all bikes in the main, but some just speak out to you and you might have interludes away from them or the brand, but you keep being dragged back to them. I find this with Harley, Ducati and BMW. It's not that I don't appreciatte and enjoyed Honda's, Yamaha's, and other brands, I do. It's just that they tend to feel more like transport to me, whereas bikes like Harleys make me think escapism. Whatever the reality, they speak more to my soul and bikes should move the soul.

Interesting observations about the V-Rod though. It seems that H-D riders really don't want to go down that particular evolutionary road. A real shame me thinks.
... they've made money on the bike, but I think they've neglected it too much. In ten years it's hp raised by 5 (which the CVO always had), which is slack in the extreme. They could have made a more modern air/oil colled engine, or simply had a nice S&S, but LC, style 130 hp / 110 lb.ft oversquare engine in the mix by now. But like other companies they tend to go their own way and hope you see it like them. A bit short-sited, as the 'other American v-twin manufacturer' makes up (a little) ground on them.

Whilst on holiday the last couple of weeks, there was a '48' available for rent. I quite liked the look of it in the press photos and it is good in the flesh also. The small tank could definitely be improved on though. I am sure however that the puny motor will make it a fairly uninspiring ride but it looks nice.
... it's a great looking bike, and I didn't it in the same breathe as the bobbers purely because of it's tank. The '48' bit refers to the year when the peanut tank was introduced. Unfortunately it also roughly equates to the range before low fuel warning light! For that reason it's a non starter for most people. The Nightster was similar, but with a larger tank. Didn't have the balloon tyres, which looked particularly cool on the 48, but it sounds like they've dropped it? Shame, I quite liked riding that, although the bigger engines are much gruntier and smoother too.

I am disappointed if they have dropped the XR1200 as it is the only Harley that I would seriously have considered actually buying.
... Jamie Whitham seemed to like his. I like the concept but not the execution. The bike is supposed to be like an XR750 flat-tracker, one of the nicest looking race bikes of a generation or three. But it looks too tall, is too heavy and not quite the 'Storz' special I had hoped for. Knievel may have liked it!

H-D will more or less continue having all their eggs in what is currently one very successful basket.
... they still have the majority of the entire bike market sewn up here in the land of the obese. My Blighty mates are not getting any slimmer or younger too, so rain or not I suspect sales of the Hogmeisters will improve in the UK in the next few years. Fortunately spending excessive amounts of time in the fetish dressing-up box is not manadatory to ownership.

BTW chaps, I'm flying to England on Friday for a week - hurrah! I shall mainly be travelling up and down the country seeing family and friends in bedfordshire and Yorkshire. And in and out of a few pubs without a thought about my cell phone or laptop - brilliant! :-D

Hiring for a day is a good decision. I think all the Softails are balanced models as you refer to them? The twin-cam 88 engine had a balancer shaft model 'B' designate. That soon became the generic norm. Then cam the 96 and now 103 mainstream engine.

They're all pretty smooth but it does alter a little per model. For instance I don't find the 103 ci quite as smooth in the Switchback as the Road King. Not that its bad or anything. I presume this is down to the mounting of the Dyna Vs. Touring frame. There's a definite distinction to be made between harsh vibration and throbbing v-twin rumbles anyway. But it's interpretation is personal as to what the rider is feeling and whether they like it or not, based on whatever else they've owned or ridden.

If you can, attend an open day and ride a few different models back to back. Then hire the one you liked the most or ask the dealer for an extended solo ride. Certainly living in NZ you're pleased with arguably the best riding roads in the world. Particularly for Adventure bikes and cruisers I would say.

Big cruisers are really about strong 40-80 mph, which realistically is where most riders spend most of their time whether they realise or admit it to themselves or others. They'll romp up to a ton quickly enough and could sit there all day. But the nature of the riding position means that unless you have a penchant for resembling a windsock, then above 80 mph they are frankly rubbish IMPO. But you know that already. And on a good one, at 65-70 mph they and the rider feel like they could trundle on forever. Sat at a steady 70 mph over distance the Fat Bob has been my favourite bike, it just seems to fit my tall and heavy dimensions well and feels very comfortable and cool at that speed.

As I've always treated speed limits as 'advisable' rather than literal, I've never had much use for a speedo unless been followed by our good officers. So I've always ridden using the rev counter as my guide in the main. I expected it to be a major issue when I bought my first cruiser (HD Deuce) but in reality it was no problem at all. You quickly get used to hearing the sound of the engine and it's feel at the optimum time that it likes to change up for strong and smooth progress. It quickly becomes second nature. A rev counter is still nice and although mcuh more of them come with them as standard now (the Switchback for instance) it's really not a problem, and an easy retro fit if you felt different post purchase.

I can't speak for NZ, but residual values on non American twins in the UK and States is pretty dire in the main to be honest. Good in terms of used prices and long term ownership, but naturally you have to be sure you'll be happy with your new love for a long time first. The T-Bird bucks that trend slightly, but it won't hold it's value as well as a Victory, which in turn cannot compete with Harley either. But this also reflects retails prices too. I.e. HD's may be worth more used, but they also cost more new too. So it depends on personal finances and what not, yadder. Whichever way you look at it, the HD angle is hard to ignore. To me, it's kind of like buying a bright yellow Lamborghini Gallardo. Boy, of boy, would I love one of them! Right up to the point, when I walk up to the salesman and say can I have a yell.... red Ferrari 458 Italia please! ;-D

Sounds like you have some good rides coming up. If you mainly ride two-up and do 300 mile plus days, the Electra Glide is the one to hire, which will be a good peer against the GoldWing, albeit different engine configurations and solutions to the same end.

But if your riding is more mixed (solo/two-up, highways and byways) then the Switchback would be a lighter way to fly. It's more versatile, with it's boulevard cruiser/touring quick-clothing change. And it's more fun to ride, which might appeal to you more than the heavier tourers, being an XR owner.

Anyway, enjoy it all and let us know how you get onw hich each model...

Personally I think HD build quality is generally very high. Nobody has thicker paint or chrome bar none IMPO. I also think the switchgear is reassuringly solid (unlike my BMW K & S models where I had problems/recalls) and I've had the least build/reliability issues with Harley's of the thirty bikes I've owned to date.

Caveat: I never rode my Harley through an English salt strewn roads winter, but plenty do with liberal Doc100/ACF50 or vaseline applied. And I'm pretty good at cleaning my bikes thoroughly every thousand miles or at half that if they happen to have some wet weather rides. But I'm also obsessed with detail, so I would sport minutia detractions.

The only fault I found was that Harley persistent using cheap banjo bolts on their exhausts and these constricting coils and their bolts do tarnish in ten seconds flat. Sometimes sooner.

Despite the 'responsible corporate' line about not selling illegal exhaust systems anymore, via their Screaming Eagle branded parts, I believe that they fully expect 95% or more of new owners to replace the exhaust system, 80% before the bike even turns a wheel. The unique sound, after all, is a key selling point for many owners.

And they are probably right about that. Does it make it right to offer a cheaply secured exhaust though? No, not IMPO, but as mentioned that's the only fault I could find with my own bikes and the whole front end of the Deuce was chrome (forks etc) with chrome wired wheel.

I guess any view can be looked at out of context. For instance, is chrome likely to rust easier than plastic? Are spoked wheels as strong as forged magnesium? I think we know the answers, but that doesn't equate to Harley's being badly built or unreliable in my own experience.

Your fitter is very entitled to his own opinion and it's as valid as my own, bar him not actually having ever owned one I'd imagine? But from my own personal experience of my Harley's, they have actually been more reliable than my Honda's or BMW's, two companies which carry a high perception level of quality in the public's mind. And the fit and finish has been higher than my Kawasaki, Suzuki, Triumph and Ducati's in the main too.

No vehicle is perfect, my luxury SUV currently has two or three faults, but I genuinely cannot understand why anyone thinks a modern Harley is badly built or unreliable. You often hear of features not working or parts breaking, even stranding journalists at bike launches. But when was the last time you heard that associated with a Harley model launch?

However my view is but one man. Harley folk are sociable, so I'd say drop by a dealer on any dry day and just ask current owners what their ownership experience has been like and whether they think that with reasonable care the bikes are as well built and reliable as anything else that they've owned or ridden. Everybody likes to talk about their bike! :-D

The thing about Harley's that gets me is that they have some very good touches on their bikes and then right next to them some truly awful ones. In general they are well enough put together but for example the good Captain's quote about the paint, is accurate enough but only where they decide to put it! OK that is kind of obvious but let me explain. My friend bought a brand new ZXDHKETSGYNMOR or whatever the hell it is, a couple of years back and he asked me to help him install some electrical bits and bobs. I was well impressed by the paint on the bike but upon looking at the underside of the tank and the area underneath the central panel that goes over the top of the tank with the speedo etc and it was incredibly poor there. I very much got the out of sight out of mind impression yet moisture and crud are still likely to work their way in there. The quality of the plastics of the aforementioned central strip was laughable and the idiot lights are so small and useless that they obviously figured the name meant that an idiot should design them. The corrosion on some of the fasteners was unacceptable and generally there were some areas where it was all too obvious to see that they have used the cheapest item for the job.

On the other hand and to be fair in a far greater proportion, there were excellent touches and the overall build quality of the bike was good. If I had one though, I would be back at the dealers getting the fasteners etc replaced under warranty pretty damn quick.

As far as these CVO bikes are concerned. Really other than some bolt on goodies and fancy paint, what is it that they have that is special? I am not being critical, I just want to know as I can't see anything in them that is all that special or that your average Harley owner does not do themselves.

Still disappointed that they have given up on the XR1200, I would like them to have developed it more not give up on it.

in all honesty no, not really but I understand what you are saying. Are you considering one?

I was sitting in motorway traffic one day hardly moving, I had seen a few bikes pass by and thought - lucky them (I feel the opposite on rainy days :), all of a sudden I heard a throaty growl as a harley came up on us, everyone immediatley moved to the edge of their lanes it was like Moses and the red sea. The Harley guy burbled past cracking his throttle every now and then. No other vehicle on the road commands respect this way and its a big insight into why I think people love to drive up and down the street on one.
I was at a beachside cafe last weekend where cars and bikes like to drive past all day long, I saw some of them up to 5 times I reckon over a couple of hours - most noticed were the harleys and the other one that grabbed me was a Ducati, its all about the sound!
I saw several Triumphs and a rocket3 too but the impact was minimal, they sound like the rest. Im not saying I want to be a poser, well not all the time.. but hell we might as well drive cars if we want to be like everybody else!